Some Tomahawk corrections, with thanks to Geoff Sinclair's mail on AB-IX:
AN281/282 - the book says these two went to Russia, but delivery logs say both to Middle East 9/41 then Turkey AN383 - the book says shot down with 5 Sqn SAAF on 30 May 42. Delivery Log has transferred to Turkey 24 March 1942, SOC 30 May 1942. Shores Et. al. History of the Mediterranean Air War has the 30 May 1942 5 SAAF Squadron loss as AM495 (listed as lost on that date in the book), delivery logs say it was SOC 8 June 1942. AN467 - typo in transfer year in the book. Delivery log says transferred to Turkey 24 March 1942, Cat E 10 July 1942. AN469/517 - the batch (all to Russia) amends the book, which has it finishing at AN485
Post by Stig Jarlevik on Dec 11, 2020 16:05:50 GMT
Ver interesting Andy
My AA to AZ book has both AN281-AN282 as going to Turkey
AN383 is interesting. I wonder what the AM.78 form says in total? What is actually the "delivery log"? Is it the same thing as the AM.78? Reason I ask is if we can keep the details listed in our booklet at all?
According to SAAF records AK383 is listed in 5 SAAF Sq records as damaged when force landing on 23 May 1942 (and so says Winston Brent
in his 85 years of SAAF but who lists this as its terminal fate). The 5 SAAF Sq records then says AN383 was finally lost 28 May 1942 (and so says Winston Brent
in his 85 years of SAAF). However this is at odds with Michael Schoeman in his Springbok Fighter Victory Vol 2 who claims AN383 is a clerical error and should in fact be AK383 (repaired and lost again) Regarding 30 May 1942 Schoeman says AM495 was lost (also in Shores et al's MAW Vol 2 page 114). The Form 541 only lists 495, but it seems all researchers are happy with the AM prefix. Schoeman then goes on to list on nine pages many discrepancies he has found between various official records, making what really happened and what can be found in the remaining records rather blurry. Many of the AM.740-741 records are handwritten, and/or written up days (or weeks/months) later from handwritten field notices, and not even then machine typed, because there were no type writer available. There are examples of very nicely written text, but there is also an equal amount of handwriting which would not exactly come out as A+. Schoeman is aware of the A-B booklet listing both AN383 and AM495 as lost on 30 May 1942 and his conclusion is that AM495 is correct but AN383 is not. AN383 is mentioned (it seems twice) in SAAF records and both times it is wrong and AK383 is meant. He does not speculate any further why the A-B booklet has AN383 listed as lost on 30 May, but just conclude it is wrong.
So did SAAF really receive AN383 at all? Unfortunately Schoeman does not answer that question, but I am doubting they actually did. Did 250Sq receive AN383? Possibly since it depends on what its AM.78 form actually says, but there were other aircraft which had served in the desert before being transferred to Turkey, so why not?
AN467 when having its Cat E accident, was it still considered to be under RAF charge?
Hudson AE650 is recorded as being A&AEE/233/53, SOC 18 Aug 47. This seems a little strange, as 53 Sqn gave up its last Hudsons in Jan 43. "United in Effort" (53 Sqn history) records that AE650/T "was wrecked but nobody was hurt" in a landing mishap in Dutch Guiana on 12 Aug 42. I am wondering if the strike date might be a typo, or a misinterpretation of the handwriting on the record card.... "Lockheed Twins" also says 1947.
Stig, Closing the loop on AM797, the RAF Commands forum discussed this loss some time back, when a quote from the Aberdeen Press of February 28th 1946 reporting this loss was given:
Ministry Officials in Plane Crash Five officials of the Ministry of Supply and Aircraft production were seriously injured, one subsequently dying from his injuries, in a Hudson plane crash near Gemen, Western Germany, during a heavy snow storm last Friday. Occupants of the plane were:- Passengers - Mr. A. D. Fisher, Ministry of Aircraft Production, died of injuries; Dr. D. H. Hall, Ministry of Supply; Mr. F. A. Emery, Ministry of Aircraft Production; Flt. Lt. J Wood - all dangerously injured; Wing Commander R. Smelt, Ministry of Aircraft Production, slightly injured. Crew - Pilot Flt. Lieut. J. Lawson; navigator Warrant Officer S. V. Brazier; wireless operator L. M. Drew - all seriously injured.
More of a query this time. Hudson AE565 is recorded as 139/1428 Flt/200, crashed in Norfolk 6.4.42. Lockheed Twins agrees. However, according to TNA, the aircraft was serving with 1428 Hudson Conversion Flight at the time of its loss: discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17205886 This makes rather more sense to me, given that 200 Sqn was based in the Gambia at the time. I can only assume that 200 Sqn was an (unfulfilled) allocation.
Some notes on 223 Sqn Baltimores. The source is the 223 Sqn ORB, plus others where noted.
AG748: this did indeed force-land on 26 Jun 42. But then it appears in the ORB again on 8 Jul 42, 9 Jul 42, leading me to believe that it may well have been recovered. Typos in the ORB could also be an issue of course.
indicates that this aircraft was lost on 27 Jun 42. I know it's not totally conclusive, but there are no further mentions of AG782 in the ORB after 25 Jun 42, and the Summary of Events for Aug 42 states only one combat loss for that month (AG887 on 31 Aug 42). It could feasibly have been lost on a non-operational flight, but I am wondering if 2 Aug 42 might actually be the strike date?
Last Edit: Aug 19, 2021 16:01:22 GMT by andym: minor typos
Post by Stig Jarlevik on Aug 19, 2021 15:27:09 GMT
Checking what far more learned individuals than me state: AG748 - both Shores et al (in Mediterranean Air War Vol 2) and Gunby/Temple (Bomber losses in the Middle East and Med vol 1) says the aircraft was lost on 26 June 1942. It was badly damaged when it force landed 33 km from LG 116. I doubt RAF had the capacity to return the aircraft in one piece so probably dismantled. The report also stated it was badly damaged, so I doubt very much it was made airworthy again. Some hick ups in the ORB? AG772 is clearly interesting. Neither Shores nor Gunby/Temple mentions it on 20 June. On the other hand they don't mention it on 27 June either. Of the two books only MAW Vol 2 is indexed. The authors usually only state the pilots name, but oddly enough none of the names given in AIR is listed in the index at all. Since there is no direct connection between the two book's authors I initially thought they both had independently missed out on this one. Also checking my issue of Halley's AA-AZ booklet (1985) he said in that volume AG772 was lost ca June 1942. So I decided to look through Gunby/Temple list for all of June and located the loss on 19 June and not the 20th. MAW Vol 2 has no losses at all listed for the 19th. I have no idea why there is a discrepancy of one day, but we may have a return past midnight which might explain the 20th. Take off is stated to have been at 21.10H AG782 was clearly lost on 27 June and not 2 Aug. The latter day was a "minor" day (if anything could actually be called minor in WW 2) with no bomber losses/German claims at all. Both Shores and Gunby/Temple list the loss on 27 June. We also have corresponding German claims for the aircraft. A SOC date 2 Aug sounds very plausible indeed
As always Andy some very interesting observations!
Post by Stig Jarlevik on Aug 19, 2021 18:09:38 GMT
That I suppose is a very good reason we both find the British (in this case) aviation history so interesting. The ORB has many shortcomings which makes the outcome of studying all the documents available so challenging.
In the cases you quote, I agree, but also wish the documentation (as in all cases) could have been a bit more clear. But it is also the fascination with history, regardless if you are interested in the stone age, the Middle Ages or simply aviation history so fascinating. It is the disagreement that I find being the most interesting. That is where real challenge lie....perhaps in more sense than one. I would hate if everyone had the same opinion all the time....especially with me....