Re Fokker Article..... I think the F.VIIB-3m was licensed produced as Avro618 'Ten' e.g. Imperial Airways Apollo G-ABLU (The Avro 610 appears to have been a different smaller single engine project rather like a Bellanca??) I think the article photo of the Fokker F.XII G-AEOS possibly shows it in British Airways colours (to whom it was sold after Crilly?). One Fokker F.XXII G-AFXR was first sold to British American Air Services at Heston who sold it to Scottish Aviation after a few months. M West 17763 (inserts via BBCode from Flickr) (Captain Roger Mollard, Imperial Airways in tropical kit) (Attachment photos by Joe Connolly as used in the Archive Heston features )
Re Fokker S-11 article Pasted from abix message# 180207 02Jun18
'Anyway, I will concentrate for the time being only on the Dutch Air Force and Navy aircraft ;
Indeed there was mention of E-40 as drawings from 1948-50 show registrations E-40 to E-44 for c/n 6283, 6284, 6285, 6286 and 6288. These aircraft became 0702, 0703, 0704, 0701 and 0700 of the Brazilian AF. Strangly enough the author of the article does not mention 0700 ?!
The Dutch government and Fokker were talking about 25 S.11's for the Dutch East Indies, (not 10 !) during the first quarter of 1949.
Throughout the years and long before the MLD received it's own Fokker S.11's from the Dutch Air Force, Various S.11's were used on a regular basis by the MLD for initial training of pilots. On April 17, 1958 VSQ-9 came into life with a strength of seven Dutch Air Force S.11's. With two extra if needed. For example E-1, E-3, E-4, E-9 to E-15, E-17 to E-20, E-26, E-27, E-29 and E-30 have also been used for longer periods, especially in the April to September periods. The MLD registrations mentioned in the article were introduced on ly as late as 1970 and all of these aircraft were in use with the MLD at various points in time before that !!
C/n 6187 PH-NBE carried the registration E-2 (1ste time) and E-1 (3rd time) and E-2 again during the 1948 and 1949 period of test flying
Likewise 6188 PH-NBF carried the registration E-1 (2nd time) from 25Jun1948 to Jun1949, the registration was carried on a special permission basis from the Dutch government
6190 was destined for the Dutch Air Force as E-1 (1st time) but this fell through, it became PH-NDX etc
6191 E-2 was the second time this registration was used (see c/n 6187)
6194 did carry the registration E-5 (1st time) but became PH-NED instead
6195 E-6 became (PH-HOT), PH-HOE
6198 was never E-8 !! end ended up as "E-42" Aviodrome for a long time, now displayed outletstore Deto Jeans Noordstraat, Axel
6199 was in fact the fourth time the registration E-1 was connected with a Fokker c/n...
6207 E-15 crashed 25May1961 Gilze-Rijen during take off
6210 E-19 crashed 28Jun196 Gilze-Rijen
6212 E-21 crashed 8dec1954 Woensdrecht
6213 E-22 is still alive as such in de Dutch Air Force museum...
6271 E-28 crashed 4feb1964 Zandvliet, Belgium
Oct1972 scrapping commenced of ten Fokker S.11's. Most ended up with C. Honcoop, Veen late 1972, these were
6193 E-4 seen 1980 at a scrapyard Haarlem
6257 E-5 (2nd use) crashed 1mMarch1972 and take out of strength, the cockpit went to LETS Deelen
6196 E-7 to Melotte Aircraft seen Hasselt-Kiewit Aug1975, (I think it survived for a while as a cockpit section only)
6201 E-10 wings to E-14 Anthony Fokker School in Den Haag
6204 E-14 remains to St.Vliegsport Gilze Rijen (seen Oct1976) and scrapped
The introductory paragraph states that “the airports at Prestwick and Renfrew played host to dozens of Canadian military aircraft” This statement is totally wrong as during the period covered by the article more than 1,000 RCAF aircraft passed through the SAL factories and many more transited both airfields. In the late 1950’s by visiting both airfields in the same day you could log more than 350 fighters, several T-33AN’s, Dakotas and perhaps a Bristol 170, Expeditor, Neptune, Northstar or C119. This is more than dozens by my calculations. This connection is still active today as RCAF transports and fighters still transit Prestwick on occasions
Reading the table there are eight squadrons operating the CF-100 4B when there were only four. Number 413, 414, 416 and 441squadrons NEVER operated Canucks in Europe.
The correct details on the CF-100 units in Europe are as follows and the four units which were replaced by the CF-100’s were re-assigned to Canada and re-equipped with the CF-100 there.
Operation Nimble Bat 1; 445 Squadron replaced 410 Squadron at Marville arriving Nov 1956
Operation Nimble Bat 2; 423 Squadron replaced 416 Squadron at Grostenquin arriving Feb 1957
Operation Nimble Bat 3; 440 Squadron replaced 413 Squadron at Zweibrucken arriving May 1957
Operation Nimble Bat 4; 419 Squadron replaced 414 Squadron at Baden-Sollingen arriving Aug 1957
The details of the unit badges and fin markings in the table is a mix of original markings carried on delivery and those carried later in their service life and some are completely wrong such as those carried by 427 Squadron. The fin band on 427 Squadron was blue not red and the central diamond was red outlined in white with a gold rampant lion in the centre. The four squadrons which were reassigned to Canada also had fin markings while in Europe.
Ferry flights; not all RCAF fighters were ferried by air to Europe, a quick check in the many publications would have shown the first Sabre 2’s were ferried by sea to Glasgow and that many others did not ferry to Prestwick but their first stop was Kinloss including some if not all the CF-100’s.
Fin flash; The original fin flash was the standard RAF type C and was replaced in early 1954 by the Canadian flag on aircraft operating in Europe but it was retained in Canada until 1958 and this resulted in many Sabre 6’s being delivered with the type C fin flash and some aircraft retained this at Prestwick for several years afterwards due to have been put into store on arrival.
I have no wish to rewrite this article but I noted that there were no mention of the many C-45s which were common visitors and the reference to the WGAF Sabre 5’s as being 60 in number should read 75 and perhaps one or two others as simulators. Tom Macfadyen A-B Prestwick A-B 3853
The Canuck 4Bs did not re-equip Sabre squadrons in 1956. Four new-to-Europe units arrived in France and Germany replacing four Sabre squadrons. (419 replaced 414, 423 replaced 416, 440 replaced 413 and 445 replaced 410). The entries on the table showing nine CF-100 squadrons need correction.
Prestwick Spotter didn’t quite manage to get the badges right. He was presumably unaware that each squadron had an official name:
Clunks: 419 Moose, 423 Eagle, 440 Bat, 445 Wolverine.
The 1953 1AD grouping was 1 (F) Wing Marville, France (410, 439, 441); 2W Grostenquin, France (416, 421, 430); 3 W Zweibrucken, WG (413, 427, 434), 4 W Baden-Soellingen, WG (414, 422, 444). The Canuck squadrons (one at each base) replaced the Sabre units at each station as per my earlier note.
Gentlemen - the person described as Prestwick Spotter passed away 20 years ago having given me his photos and some notes on the aircraft at Prestwick. He was always anxious to remain anonymous and I have respected that wish. However, I hope you will agree that the information and pictures were worth publishing. - Rod S ABIX message 02Jun18
My own comment on the new format Aviation World is that some of the non-historical pages (i.e. current affairs) would perhaps fit better in Air Britain News...e.g. 2018 show reports, Air Britain photo competition, Air Britain Photo News, General Aviation News. I didn't subscribe to Aeromilitaria though I did some photo-scanning for it .....how the military side of the combined magazine is to be repaired and the confidence of it's readership base restored needs some serious thought. I think any outsider looking at a sample Air Britain News (a phenomenal output btw) would expect more photos, whereas my personal view of Aviation World is that pages of small colour photos give a cluttered effect and monochrome and coloured photos don't mix too well. Just on the basis that Air Britain News publishes some 2000plus pages annually mailed out 12 times for £40 whereas Aviation World publishes ca.288 pages annually mailed out 4 times for £30 suggests one is cross-subsidizing the other? Or have I got it wrong?
Thanks for the comments - there is of course no cut and dried answer to some of the points, as they are down to what individual members want to receive.
Content of ABN v Aviation World - generally the page count in ABN is nudging against the postal rates limits - trying to fit even more in could end up costing a lot more. Also ABN tends to concentrate on data and some of the items mentioned, such as the Photo elements or GA News are less suited to that format.
The number of photos per page in Aviation World, particularly the Members Photos, has decreased from around 8 a page to 5 to give a better presentation (which is itself a problem considering the number of good photos submitted each quarter). We would like to have colour throughout, but obviously some subjects are not available in colour.
When preparing the costings for the two magazines, we did try to balance the rates, so there would not be any significant difference in the amounts each magazine contributed to the overall running costs of Air-Britain. Of course, when the figures were prepared we did not know the take-up for each of the magazines, or for the combined package. As we come to set the 2019 rates we will take this into account.
The new look Aviation World is just two issues old and the format / content will evolve as we go on. We try to maintain a balance between civil and military content; however one of the key factors is that we need contributions of articles and features from our membership - editorial help with the finishing touches can always be provided.
The latest Aviation World made its way to Australia this week. can I congratulate all concerned on a great publication with a wide range of articles. I was delighted to see the coverage of the Argonaut which was our link to the world from Uganda when I lived there as a boy in the 1950s. I flew in quite a few of these with BOAC, and later with East African and Aden Airways and particularly remember a trip from Nairobi to Mogadishu and Aden in VR-AAT in 1961 when one engine would not start in Mogadishu so we passengers were offloaded onto the apron, the aircraft took off on three and windmill started the fourth before returning, reloading us and taking off for Aden again. Not many facilities in Mogadishu then!
Also enjoyed the article on British Eagle which reminded me of a trooping flight from Aden in 1958 when we took off in G-APON with a light load as it was not clear whether Khartoum would be available for refuelling after a military coup. We were the first civil aircraft to land at Khartoum after the coup and found the passenger terminal surrounded by sandbags and machine gun posts. Fortunately a USAF Globemaster landed shortly after us so we felt a little safer.
Also enjoyed the article on Naval Airships and the history of the IAI Arava (I saw two of them in Lae in 1988).